Essay content - to remove the word limit for instant feedback

Hi,

The essay is a great type of content. I'm wondering if the word limit of 255 characters for instant feedback can be removed...when using the essay type in adult learning content, sometimes the faculty feedback needs to be way much longer than one or two sentences.

Thanks!

otacke's picture

Hi Chloe!

It's me again. Now that I've found out how flexible H5P really is, I can easily change this, but I am not quite sure what you are referring to with "instant feedback". This term is not used anywhere in H5P.Essay. I guess you are talking about the feedback that you can provide if a keyword is found or not found -- but you could also mean the overall feedback that can be defined for different score ranges.

Also: I cannot set infinity as a value, and one does not simply allow veeery large values for such a field :-) Do 1000 characters sound sensible?

Best,
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

I'm using 'Question Set' today and there seems no word limit for instant feedback...you might want to check how it is set up for 'Question Set', then update the setup of 'Essay'? :)

Thanks!

Chloe

otacke's picture

Hi Chloe!

Question Set is set up exactly like Essay or other content types thet use the Overall Feedback widget (still not sure if you mean this one). It's also limited to 255 characters.

Best,
Oliver

Then it must be my wrong impression...sorry!

Hopefully the limit can be increased to 2000 characters for each instant feedback in the feedback widget, no matter overall feedback, feedback to right answer or wrong answer. Thanks!

otacke's picture

Do you mind adding a feature request where you briefly describe your idea and why it's useful? That's how we keep track of all the suggestions that the community will (hopefully) soon be able to vote for.

To be specific, it would be great to increase the character limit to 2000~4000, if cannot remove the limit. Thanks!

otacke's picture

Hi!

Maybe you missed my previous answer: Do you mind adding a feature request where you briefly describe your idea and why it's useful?

Best
Oliver

Thanks for reminding...

Request added

otacke's picture

You're welcome!

Hi Oliver,

I'm wondering if there is any update on the feature request re: removing/increasing word limit for instant feedback of ESSAY. Is this completed? Thanks!

Chloe

otacke's picture

Hi Chloe!

I set the limit to 1000 quite a while ago, since it seems to be enough. However, the new code (including various other stuff) needs to be peer-reviewed, and our main focus right now is getting H5P.com out of its beta state. I guess it might stil need a couple of days before the update is released, sorry.

Best,
Oliver

Thank you so much for the update, Oliver

Looking forward to the update! (I have an online module to be released within probably 3 weeks...hopefully we can take advantage of this update :) )

 

Chloe 

otacke's picture

I hope it'll be released by then.

Thanks, Oliver.

Guess I'll check back later :)

Kiosa Coup's picture

2000 characters of instant feedback? Oi!

On your list of things to work on, I hope implementing (for the essay type) the kind of instant feedback that we get when the answer choice is correct or incorrect in the question set is higher. Like, a LOT higher.

Of course, it might also be quite a bit more difficult to implement.

While we're on the subject, a little legend somewhere on the page adding up the points as the user gets yet another of the keyword or keyword phrases would be fanTAStic too!

Those are higher on said list, for me, than getting the essay type into the question set.

Just one POV. Ask around.

otacke's picture

Hi!

I set it to 1.000 characters quite some time ago and am now waiting for the peer review. As soon as that's done and passed (might even be within the week, fingers crossed), Essay will have a couple of new features:

 

  • Added accessibility for people who use readspeakers (requested by Simone Wood)
  • Added new translations: Dutch contributed by René Breedveld, French contributed by knowledgeplaces, and Italian contributed by Gerardo Fallani
  • Added code that allows Essay to be included in H5P Column and H5P Question Set (requested by several users)
  • Added support for sending results to the host system's "gradebook" (requested by Kees Koopman and Caoimhin)
  • Added (expert) support for regular expressions as keyword phrases
  • Added an option to add media on top of the question (requested by H5P beta testers)
  • Added an option to choose the type of keyword shown in the solution (requested by Sebastian Rettig)
  • Set maximum length of keyword related feedback to 1.000 characters (requested by ucalgarycme)
  • Fixed a bug with the styling of the solution text (reported by Simon Hardaker)
  • Fixed a bug with solution popping up in the wrong spot
  • Fixed a bug that might lead to a crash on Internet Explorer 11

Unfortunately, I am not sure what you mean with "kind of instant feedback". Do you mind to explain it to me?

I added your suggestion for a legend to my list of issues. I guess I am now trying to close Pandora's box ... I never really liked the idea of scoring the texts based on keywords, and that's why I included the option to ignore scoring. Maybe I should not have included scoring at all but have restricted Essay to verbal feedback.

Kiosa Coup's picture

First of all: Nice! Pandora's Box indeed. Great feedback loop too. It's good to know Essay has so many brilliant fans.

What is "(expert) support for keyword phrases"? Does that mean we'll be able to test for possessives -- like "Pandora's Box"?

Could we get you to maybe pen a blog re what you mean by Behaviorist Teaching and what you would use instead of keywords?

RE: The Legend -- From my POV, knowing that keyword phrases are worth 1 point each, numbers/dates are worth 10 points and one surprise keyword phrase in particular is worth a whopping 20 points -- complete with progress bar for a possible total 125 points (and a chance to connect with other people who think that 125% is worth fighting for - eventually) is called gamification. Gamification has been found to be a very effective driver of persistant deliberate practice -- particularly in the face of what might otherwise seem like undesirable difficulty.

In stark contrast, verbal feedback (beyond judicial Process Praise or helpful hints) is labor intensive -- both from the teacher and the student's perspective - and asking the excellent to get in the way of the good. If you have 2000 words of "instant" feedback, then probably what you're really looking at is a follow up lesson plan, at least 3 quizzes and another final exam. But.

I could be wrong, that's for sure. Real Life can be funny that way.

otacke's picture

What is "(expert) support for keyword phrases"?

You left out the clue. You can use so called regular expressions. They are a standardized way of defining patterns. So yes, you can probably also detect possessives in a generic way. However, I will definitely not implement something like a graphical editor for composing regular expressions, although some may want to use them but think they're to complicated. That's why I added "expert".

Could we get you to maybe pen a blog re what you mean by Behaviorist Teaching and what you would use instead of keywords?

There's a nice video which demonstrates what pure "behaviorist teaching might look like. Behaviorist theories can explain some aspects of learning, but not all of them if you follow the ideas of cognitivism/constructivism in learning psychology. Simple tools such as quizzes are great (and there's still lot's of room for improvement, e.g. discrete option multiple choice tests or n-tier questions) to foster knowing of comprehending, but it'll be hard to help with evaluating (which often involves norms and doesn't fit into right-wrong-categories). Yes, those were the poles of the classic Bloom's taxonomy of learning domains. That's why I asked for cooperative and/or collaborative and/or competitive options for H5P quite some time ago to have additional options. Don't get me wrong, I believe that the tools that H5P offer are great and I see a lot potential for even more stuff (that's why I'm working on it :-)), but they are still tools. They work well for a particular purpose but not for others. Some people coined the term "toolification". It describes the extensive use of tools for things they are not suitable for -- but they're so shiny, easy to use, cheap, ...

Using the scoring system might give you the illusion that you could judge a text just by checking for certain keywords. On the one hand, it's not possible to grasp the essence of a text just by parsing it for words, and on the other hand you could also write bogus and still get point -- just because you entered the "correct" words. Instead of writing a decent text, you might rather be adjusting your writing to the algorithm. Axel Krommer calls this Wii-effect, because it's similar to playing tennis on a Nintendo Wii -- you're not learning to play tennis, but to mimic motions that the game console accepts as tennis movements.

Analyzing a text using machine learning algorithms would be superior (after sufficient training), that's what I intended to do with essay -- I never hid that the current version is just an experiment. However, even this more sophisticated solution would have its flaws.

Gamification is often reduced to points, badges and leaderboards -- hence there's even a common abbreviation for it: PBL. In general however, gamification is far more and rather "thinking like a game designer". You should be more concerned about thinking about your "audience" first, about how people should progress, etc. Painting your car red won't make it a Ferrari just as slapping points onto somthing won't make this something "gamified" (or very very faintly at best). Also, gamification is not a guarentee for more engagement, motivation, etc. and can even have the opposite effect. If you're interested, you might want to check out the Gamification course by Kevin Werbach for example.

Of course, good feedback or creating good learning content is labor intensive! As is becoming good at tennis (which you cannot learn by playing tennis on a Nintendo Wii), as is cooking great meals (which you cannot replace with having a microwave oven), etc. In my humble opinion, having the scoring system in place may lead to having the illusion of being able to "judge" the quality of the text. Quizzes are not a shortcut.

And of course, you can always find one single aspect or effect on learning in papers, but those are isolated most of the time and ignore the big picture of learning.

Wow, that post got long, and it's not even structrued well or thought through. Hope it helps nevertheless.

Best,
Oliver

Kiosa Coup's picture

OK OK OK. Does "Added (expert) support for regular expressions as keyword phrases" mean that we will be able to flag and require an apostrophe with

Pandora\'s Box

?

Are we talking Javascript?

Right now, if we want to test for or allow a word with an apostrophe/single quote, for example "Pandora's Box", we have to select "Forgive minor mistakes".

Which is okay if the user enters "Pandora's Box" - but definitely not great if the user enters "Pandoras Box".

otacke's picture

Hi Kioasa!

Regular expressions are a well defined way to define patterns across any programming language (although there may be some exceptions as always ...). It will probably become quite complex if you have complex patterns, but you could for example use ...

/\w+\'s \w+/

which would accept any combination of a word followed by an apostroph, an s, a space, and another word.

For latin, the regular expression

/popul(us|i|o|um)/

would find all singular cases of populus, etc.

A great way to learn about and test your regular expressions is https://regexr.com/. You can write a text, define a regular expression (and have a look at some explanatory hints) and see what parts of the text match the regular expression.

Kiosa Coup's picture

  1. German -Büchse der Pandora
  2. Norwegian -Pandoras eske
  3. French -La boite de Pandore
  4. Italian - Il vaso di Pandora
  5. Spanish- Caja de Pandora

See also: You're welcome -

Bitte, værsågod, de rien, prego, de nada.

Learn something every day.

Kiosa Coup's picture

This is actually a very nice tool, as is (as far as I'm concerned (without any more bells and whistles, really)). I am getting a lot of use out of it. It has quite rapidly become my favorite question type - quirky workarounds notwithstanding.

Thank you.

otacke's picture

Hi Kiosa!

Glas to hear that you like it! Thanks! Despite all shortcomings of Essay in its current state, it was developed out of an actual need for something like it -- maybe that's why it is useful for you and others :-) Well, and it's intended to be a training ground for my (private) machine learning experiments. Hope to get back to that stuff soon.

Best,
Oliver